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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:41 pm 
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Location: Tucson, Arizona
Jaropha cardiophylla is endemic to our area. It is the most northern species of the Americas.
I call it a succulent. There are references that term it a semi-succulent. I know that succulence is not a taxinomic term and is not fully defined in some botanists minds.
The J. cardiophylla is a stem succulent non CAM plant by most accounts.
The definition of semi-succulent is vague. IMO succulence either is or is not utilized by a plant as a reserve of water. How much reserve is needed to be succulent I find no definition for.
It is like being semi-pregnant.
Can I have some input here. Reference to web info or literature is needed to show a person that insists the plant is not succulent.
Having dug a few it seems possible that there is a possibility that the roots also assist in retaining water for arid times.
Any input greatly appreciated,
AZED

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"Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
ArizonaEd--Tucson Cactus and Succulent Society-- www.tucsoncactus.org


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 2:31 pm 
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Ed, succulentism is obvious a relative term since it means any plant adapted to heat and drought, storing water in leaves, stems, or roots (i.e. caudex forming plants). Poking around the web reveals that Jatropha cardiophylla is usually called a 'shrub', but that word is itself rather vague.

Since it is a member of family Euphorbiaceae, many of whom are considered succulent in one way or another, I looked for it on Frank Vincentz's Succulent Euphorbias web site. Although it's not in the alphabetical listing of photos, it is categorized on the checklist: succulent members of plant family Euphorbiaceae, as a stem succulent (deciduous herbs, shrubs or trees). So I think Jatropha cardiophylla can be officially considered succulent.

A succulent is as a succulent does.

Brad


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:24 am 
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Brad,
Thanks for the info. It raised plenty more questions. Not just on the Jatropha. Plenty to keep the grey matter churning

From the list in your link the terms for the abbreviation Sdec
are listed as "stem succulent, deciduous herbs shrubs or trees.
That is all fine BUT they are in parentheses() and the legend states:

"Type in brackets, e.g. (Sd): Either the plant is little succulent
and more herbaceaous, xerophytic or woody,
or as the plant is not in cultivation the
true expression of its succulence is not yet known. "


Oh Poop!! More fodder for the anti-succulent folks.

I have shot off a few e-mails to a few professionals I know that have personal experience with the plant. Perhaps I can get at least an opinion to share.

Leafed out J. cardiophylla in Saguaro NP-West this summer.
Attachment:
Jatropha cardiophylla.jpg
Jatropha cardiophylla.jpg [ 431.14 KiB | Viewed 128 times ]


I still stand by my semi-pregnant statement. I understand plant succulence as usually an enlargement of the parenchyma tissue to store water as a reservoir for more arid periods. This is the case in the J. cardiophylla. Unless there is specific % of enlargement required to be a "real" succulent. The J. cardiophylla is a succulent in my mind.
To be continued,
MixedupEd :?

OH FORGOT-another term I ran across:
According to John F. Wiens- Department of Botany, Arizona-Sonora Desert Museum,
Jatropha cardiophylla Limberbush (marginally succulent stemmed perennial)
John feels the plant is a stretch to be called succulent anything!!!!!! That is 20+years of experience there.
ED

_________________
"Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
ArizonaEd--Tucson Cactus and Succulent Society-- www.tucsoncactus.org


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:54 am 
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Seldom do I reply to my own post but I just recieved info from Dr. Mark Dimmit. A gentleman I have very high regard. He is on the BOD of TCSS also and I have the privledge of working with him. He is not only a world class Adenium hybidizer and maintains a whole greenhouse of beautiful Orchids(succulents as you will read). He is one of the most knowledgeable scholars of the Sonoran Desert and has done wonderful research on our great desert.
He was kind enough to give a quick reply to my request and I think it well worth reading.

Ed,

Jatropha is clearly a succulent. I have abandoned the term semisucculent. There isn't even a standard definition of succulent. I published a discussion of the term on the website: http://desertmuseum.org/programs/succul ... nition.php

I am satisfied with his analysis of the subject. (because I was correct in the first place :lol: :lol: :lol: )

Adios,
AZED

_________________
"Look deep into nature, and then you will understand everything better."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
ArizonaEd--Tucson Cactus and Succulent Society-- www.tucsoncactus.org


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